Inflection Points Podcast: Open your eyes to unlock your doors?

All those eye scans in the movies missed something: Biometrics needs to determine first “am I looking at a person” and then “is this the right person?” explains Alexey Khitrov, CEO of ID R&D.

Listen in on his talk with hosts Carla Guzzetti and Tim Harrison on the network-based tech that needs you to work.

Inflection Points is a podcast about technology and big ideas from the Office of the CTO at Extreme Networks.  Co-hosts Carla Guzzetti and Tim Harrison explore big ideas with the team at Extreme Networks’ Office of the CTO and with other guests.



Tim Harrison (00:05):
Welcome to Inflection Points, join hosts, Carla Guzzetti, and Tim Harrison. As we explore Extreme’s vision of the Infinite Enterprise. We see a world where people have become infinitely distributed around the globe, which means businesses must work at-scale and focus increasingly on becoming consumer centric to connect with each and every one of them.

Carla Guzzetti (00:36):
Tim. I’m gonna sound like you for a minute.

Tim Harrison (00:38):
Uh oh.

Carla Guzzetti (00:38):

Tim Harrison (00:39):
Oh, there it is.

Carla Guzzetti (00:41):
Uh, so, you know, I really, I’m gonna get on my small soapbox and I’m gonna say: I really can’t stand passwords. I hate multifactor authentication. It takes up a lot of time. I can never remember. It seems like we’re spending all of this money on all these other things. There should be a better way. Shouldn’t there be a better way?

Tim Harrison (01:01):
What are you trying to say?

Carla Guzzetti (01:03):
What I’m trying to say is I hate bleeping passwords.

Tim Harrison (01:06):
<laugh> Got it. Okay. Uh, well, if it makes you feel any better, I give my laptop the finger all the time when I try and log in.

Carla Guzzetti (01:13):
That does make me feel better, and it is quite odd that both you and I are upset at the same thing, which is why I feel old now. <laugh>

Tim Harrison (01:20):
Thank you.

Carla Guzzetti (01:21):
You’re welcome.

Carla Guzzetti (01:22):
It’s two <laugh>

Tim Harrison (01:23):

Tim Harrison (01:24):
Okay. Uh, well, you know, and I’ll tell you, I get really annoyed at trying to get into my own home sometimes. Um, maybe that’s, uh, sad to say, but you know, I have a smart lock, and I’m putting that in air quotes, um, ‘bunny ears’.

Carla Guzzetti (01:41):
<laugh> For all of our guest listeners.

Tim Harrison (01:41):
Yes. Um, because this is definitely not on video, but, um, yeah, I have a smart lock and when I’m trying to get into my own home, you know, and I’ve got my son Sasha balanced on one arm and I’ve got, you know, bags of groceries and fish and all sorts of things that I’m holding onto. I don’t know why fish. Um, I get to the door and like, I can’t press the buttons. Right. Which is kind of silly. And Sasha’s sitting there screaming at me and, you know, the fish is getting antsy and I just wanna get through the door right? And it’s very difficult to do that. So, you know, technology has given us all these new, smart ways to make our lives easier, but it actually becomes a different challenge rather than you having a seamless experience of being able to get through my door or give my laptop, the finger and have everything work that way.

Carla Guzzetti (02:30):
Well, so now I’m wondering about two things. One, I’m wondering why you’re buying so much fish, but we’re not going to go down that road.

Tim Harrison (02:36):

Carla Guzzetti (02:37):
I’m wondering also <laugh>

Tim Harrison (02:39):
It’s good for you I hear.

Carla Guzzetti (02:40):
It is. So we talk a lot about, you know, making everything more consumer centric, particularly because of the infinite enterprise. Everybody has to make tech, more seamless, a lot easier. My question is, why haven’t we done this for security yet? Isn’t that the next logical place to go? Why have we not figured out some ways that you can hold the fish, the baby, and just look at your door? And it would unlock rather than having to press the pin buttons and remember your code and everything. Why have we not figured out that I don’t need multi-factor authentication to get into teams? Why, why have we not done this? Does that sound like a logical place?

Tim Harrison (03:19):
It does. It’s a great question. And, you know, when I think about it, it seems like we continue to make security more complex by means of different ways of authenticating, because we think that that makes life easier to be secure. So maybe we’re looking at things the wrong way. Maybe we need to do something different if that’s not working,

Carla Guzzetti (03:41):
That’s what I’m saying. Where are we in this – moving things forward and making things easier when it comes to security, I was expecting to unlock my door with my eyeball by now, you know, I should be worried about, you know, if someone’s gonna steal my eyeball and if they’re gonna be able to replace it, that’s what the movies have promised me. Where is it? <laugh>

Tim Harrison (04:01):
That’s, uh, terribly surprising and rather uncomfortable. But, um, I understand your point. I think the best thing to do is to ask the question to somebody who’s an expert in that particular field. And fortunately we happen to know somebody and we’ve been able to get a hold of him. His name is Alexey Khitrov. He is the president of ID R&D. And his goal is to make security frictionless to make it seamless and invisible. So that indeed, Carla, you can open the door with your eyeball, uh, preferably still fully intact. Uh, but, I think Alexey’s the right guy to be able to take us on a journey through, you know, why are we still using passwords and what is it gonna take for us to get to the panacea of bio-metrics and that seamless frictionless experience?

Carla Guzzetti (04:53):
Well, I think it’s safe to say that Alexey has found his fan base here. So I’m really excited to go and find out what he’s got to say and when this is going to get better.

Tim Harrison (05:02):
And that’ll turn me back into the only crotchety one on the podcast.

Carla Guzzetti (05:05):

Carla Guzzetti (05:06):
Alexey, I’m so excited that you’re here. And, um, but I’m gonna really just start with our first question, which is a big one. What do you do and how do you do it? I mean, you’re in such an incredible field, so I think let’s just start with the big wide open question – what’s going on?

Alexey Khitrov (05:27):
First of all, thank you so much for having me and what we’re doing at ID R&D is we’re doing bio-metrics, we’re doing bio-metrics and we’re doing liveness. So we’re developing core technology that’s answering two core questions when it comes to authentication and personalization services. And these two questions are “is this the right person?” And secondly, “is this a person?” And from the point of security, sometimes the second one is actually even more important than the first one. And then the way that we’re doing it distinguishes ourselves from the rest of the market, because we are putting a lot of emphasis on the ability to, to deliver these capabilities in a frictionless way. The core idea is that we as humans, when we see each other, when we meet each other, if we met before, we don’t ask ourselves for passwords or driving licenses, when I’m gonna go home today, I’m gonna see my wife and she’s not gonna ask me for my driving license to, to make sure it’s me. She knows me. Right?

Carla Guzzetti (06:31):
<laugh> she doesn’t?

Alexey Khitrov (06:31):
<laugh> um, well

Carla Guzzetti (06:31):
I should get my husband to stop doing that.

Alexey Khitrov (06:34):
Or if I go see my friends, you know, you to have a drink, they, they’re not gonna ask the same question, but if I’m gonna go and do something with my bank, they’re gonna ask me for a lot of questions. Although ironically, I actually have a longer relationship with my bank than with some of my friends <laugh> so what we’re seeing. So, here, we’re seeing the need for the enterprise, for technology to catch up to that and create the same experience, the need for friction when it comes to security and application comes not from the need for friction, but from the fact that technology was not able to deliver this frictionless experience. And that’s what ID R&D is doing. So we’re trying to build the capability that can allow people to communicate with enterprise, with the technology, with devices in the same way that we communicate with other humans, so, and we’re bringing the security aspect of it.

Tim Harrison (07:30):
You mentioned an interesting word there, uh, ‘liveness’. Can you describe what liveness is? Uh, you know, it sounds like a concept, is that your concept? Explain how that works?

Alexey Khitrov (07:41):
Absolutely. So liveness is the ability to distinguish between a person and a presentation effect and the presentation effect can come in any way, shape or form. So it can come as a picture. It can come as a mask, it can come as a card, or that can come as a video. It can come as a recording. So basically any representation of the person other than the person him or herself. So if somebody were to try to break into my bank account, that may be using facial recognition they’re not gonna try to find my non-existing identical twin, but they just gonna go into my Facebook page and print my fantastic vacation photos and just stick it to the camera. <laugh> so the liveness technology is a technology that enables to differentiate between me being in front of the device. And somebody who’s trying to show some type of an image in my place.

Alexey Khitrov (08:33):
And typically the way that this problem was solved before is through so-called active license. So, in order to establish that there’s a person, not a photograph, the idea was that let’s make this person do something, and then we’ll check whether that person is doing the right thing. And therefore there is a person there, which kind of created a very weird, strange experiences sometimes, right? So like turning head this way and that way, blink three times, move your phone in a certain way, if you’re doing it on the mobile phone. You know, my favorite one was when the company was – I was asked to follow a red dot on the screen with your nose, so you kind of have to do use to do a little… Jiggy.

Carla Guzzetti (09:18):
So everybody’s gonna be dancing

Tim Harrison (09:19):
The circus seal, kinda –

Alexey Khitrov (09:20):
Exactly. So what we’re doing is that we’re creating a technology that does liveness in a passive way. So we’re doing this analysis based on a single frame on, a single image. When it comes to the facial recognition, so we no longer need any active participation of the person. We just take the selfie that a person already takes for the purposes of the facial recognition and apply our technology, our product. And, we can answer the question whether there is a person in front of the camera or, or it’s some type of presentation text.

Carla Guzzetti (10:01):
So I mean, I think that’s fascinating. And I think that means in the future, I’ll be unlocking my iPhones by zigzagging my eyes all over the place. <laugh> and I’m gonna look like a crazy lady, more so than already. Um, but I think, um, one of the things that you also mentioned is a frictionless experience. And I think that’s really interesting, and I wanna take a moment to unpack that a little bit because there’s a lot there, to your point when you come home every day, your wife, doesn’t ask you to show you your driver’s license to her, right. She knows who you are. Um, I think that probably right now, a lot of people feel there’s a lot of security in paper documents in, you know, multifactor authentication and, you know, passwords that they can change themselves. And I think that we have that extra step probably because it makes everybody feel secure. So how do we, what do you mean by frictionless as, and eliminating those steps? Um, and how do we make people feel more comfortable about this now frictionless world?

Alexey Khitrov (11:05):
Well, this is a great question because when it comes to security, sometimes people do feel that if I’m being asked to do something, if there’s some extra steps in the process that makes this process more secure, the reality is that it’s, it’s not necessarily true. And you know, some technologies, some processes do rely on these extra steps to provide the security, but in technology, things are moving very quickly and the liveness capabilities and the bio-metric capabilities that, that are available, right now can provide the same level of security or even greater level of security than traditional methodology like passwords. Because passwords were invented by the Roman army about 2000 years ago. And so not necessarily one of the latest technologies, and we’re thankful to the Roman army for inventing this, we’ve been using this for, for a couple of thousands of years, but I think it’s time to upgrade the user experience a little bit.

Alexey Khitrov (12:10):
And again, I think you’re right, it’s a human nature to think that, you know, if I’m made to suffer a little bit on the regular basis, that I’m doing it for a reason. If I’m updating my passwords on a monthly basis, I need to have one capital letter, three special signs and my blood type somewhere in it. It really makes it unbreakable, but the reality is that the bio-metrics are actually more accurate. And with the addition of liveness, they’re more protected and we can make people’s lives so much better if we don’t make them suffer through the constant password reset, just think of the, hours, days and centuries that we, as a humanity losing, through the constant password reset <laugh>. So if we can eliminate that part of human life, I think, you know, my job here would be done on this planet.

Tim Harrison (13:09):
Well, I just learned something new about the length of time we’ve been using passwords. But, this is where I get really curious about the friction-less part. You know I have a smart lock in my home. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that out loud. Um, and it’s got a key slot, right? I have a key fob for my car. Uh, I guess I can press the button within proximity of the car, it’ll unlock it, uh, but it also has a backup key built in, um, why has it taken so long and what do you see, uh, from a vision standpoint that will change the nature of how we engage with frictionless security in that those backup mechanisms can go away and bio-metrics will solve the problem?

Alexey Khitrov (13:55):
Well, I think it’s happening. And I think it’s slowly happening and it’s just gonna be so, it’s so technologically we’re pretty much there. I think it’s more of a matter of getting used to it and, applying this technology in time, in the right way, and by right way, I mean, in the way that it’s acceptable by society, it’s acceptable by people that they feel more comfortable around that. I’ll give you an example. So in, in Moscow, they’re starting to pay for the subway rights with the face. So you just show up at the subway station and they scan your face. And if you’re prepaid, you go in. In that society, you know, that seems like, like an option that, a lot of people like. In some, I dunno, in some Western society, I don’t think that people in London would appreciate that right now. They’ll think that the big brother is watching.

Tim Harrison (14:53):

Alexey Khitrov (14:53):
So I think that the, that the adaptation of this technology it’s as much of a function of technological capabilities as the society’s ability to kind of, to accept it. And this ability to accept it will come from ability of the people to control it and, have a choice in it. I think there’s… We are seeing some backlash around facial recognition right now. Facebook just announced that ‘we are gonna stop using it’, but I think the key issue here is that there’s a difference between authentication and surveillance. And the key difference is that surveillance is something that’s done to you, and authentication is something that you’re doing yourself. So if people have control, if, people understand that they can enroll into the system and use the benefits of it, and, you know, one of the benefits among many that we just discussed is that now I don’t need to remember all these passwords.

Alexey Khitrov (15:56):
I think that’s a fantastic benefit. So if I choose to go through the route of biometrics, in order to get access to this benefit, and that’s my choice, I feel comfortable about it. If somebody’s putting surveillance cameras on my street, and I have no idea what the government is doing with it, there, you might have a problem. So I think it’s just a matter of understanding the process of acceptance of the technology and society and ability to give people a choice to opt in and opt down is, is one of the keys.

Tim Harrison (16:38):
Do you think that that’s a generational thing, the acceptance of bio-metrics as not surveillance, but as access technology? I’m thinking of, you know, my phone, my phone allows me to unlock originally with touch ID and now face ID, sorry for using product names. But, um, they, um, you know, I’ve gotten used to it and I still have some people who say, wow, that makes me uncomfortable. But I think, you know, uh, maybe generation Z have gotten used to this, and this is how they unlock their phones. Uh, is this how this is going to progress with a generational change?

Alexey Khitrov (17:14):
This is how they unlock the phone and that is gonna be how they unlock their front doors. And then it’s gonna be how they unlock their cars. And this is how they’re gonna get access to their bank accounts. And this is how they’re gonna pay for groceries in the store. I think the usability and security and a combination of both is something that you inevitably drive the acceptance of this technology in adaptation of this technology, but let the people choose. And I think once they understand how it works, they understand that they have control, they’ll feel much more comfortable about it, right? So it just, it’s just a matter of, kind of, of trusting. And that’s why you see Facebook saying, we’re not gonna use the facial recognition anymore, but you don’t, you’re not gonna hear the same, this statement from Apple anytime soon, because it’s definitely here to stay on the phones, whereas the way the Facebook did the implementation, they actually, you know, they put less control in the hands of the users. And I think they’re paying for it.

Tim Harrison (18:30):
That’s, I like that approach. That’s really interesting that there’s an opt-in opportunity, but there’s also sort of a more forthcoming, ‘this is what we’re doing with that data’ versus ‘we’re using facial recognition technology in the background, and yes, we’re doing it for you, but you don’t necessarily know why’. I think that’s a really interesting differentiation. I like that.

Carla Guzzetti (18:53):
I also think though that it leads us into a bit of a privacy conversation. Right. And I think that’s part of the backlash that we see from Facebook. And also, I think now, you could potentially see some instances where, you know, let’s say it’s not working, it’s not recognizing how do you troubleshoot that? Who do you reach out to? I think those seem like some of the obvious obstacles around adoption in the immediate future. I completely understand, I think generation Z and the generation after that totally, you are completely spot on, that is how they log into their bones. It’s what they’re used to, but in the immediate term, how do you see companies overcoming some of those obstacles?

Alexey Khitrov (19:37):
Well, I think there’s a number of misconceptions about the technology that you mentioned, and I can add another one. So, what if somebody breaks into the database of a bank that’s using facial recognition, voice recognition, and then they steal my image well, and then I’m forever compromised. Right? So, it’s funny that it’s actually, it’s much safer to use the facial recognition than it is your social security number, because if somebody gets hold of your social security number, you are compromised for a long time and the change is very difficult. But if somebody gets your picture from the bank, well, they can get your picture on Facebook, you’re posting your pictures already. So why you’re concerned about that that’s kind beyond me, like if –

Carla Guzzetti (20:40):
They can’t get my liveness, right.

Tim Harrison (20:43):
Yeah. That’s the interesting point. Yeah.

Alexey Khitrov (20:44):
But that’s exactly it. So, but if you’re deploying technology like liveness, then the bad guys would not be able to use this data. Right. So they can have your picture, but, how are they gonna present it if they gonna print it, if they’re gonna put it on the screen and, and try to use it to get access to your accounts or compromise your identity in any way, liveness would stop them from doing that. So that’s, a key component here to give the confidence to the people that the technology is safe. And we have a lot of ways to make it secure without actually bothering you without asking you to do all this additional steps in user experience. And that’s what kinda started the conversation. So that’s why the passive aspect of the liveness is so important that we can make it secure. Without making your life more difficult.

Tim Harrison (21:44):
Alexey, when we talk about security, um, there’s often this security of the communication. There’s the security of the data at the end, um, do you see an opportunity for an ability to revoke your biometrics, uh, and a process by which somebody can say, I no longer wish to engage with this particular organization and have them have that information about me, do you foresee a way that, a user can have that control to be able to opt back out and remove their data from that?

Alexey Khitrov (22:14):
Absolutely. I think if you’re ending your relationship with the bank or with, you know, your account with any type of service, you absolutely should be able to not just cancel your account, but also revoke or destroy your bio-metric data. So I see no problem with that from a technology perspective.

Tim Harrison (22:48):
So it’s really about adoption. It’s how, how people adopt bio-metrics and how they manage that. Coming from a former data center background, we had sort of multifactor bio-metrics, so fingerprint, weight measurements and things like that which is always very awkward. <laugh>, It was never, never published, but, is that acceptable in the way forward having that multifactor version, even when it’s frictionless? So you’ve got liveness, you’ve got, I guess, the visual identity that you are. What about the multifactors of that? Is there a consistent check point of those bio-metrics to make sure the person who’s still sort of sitting in front of it, is that person?

Alexey Khitrov (23:36):
So, I think that there’s a two part question here actually, because, one is about the multifactor and the other one about the continuous authentication, not just at the point of logging, but, throughout the transaction, throughout your interaction with the particular product solution or the enterprise. I’m a huge believer and a huge fan of multifactor if it’s done correctly. And by correctly, again, we’re going back to the frictionless experience. If you’re just stacking steps in the user experience on top of each other, that’s not really helping people. If you can collect data, a lot of different data at the same time, that would really increase the security of this transaction created. So I’ll give you an example, so we can… So right now we are looking at each other, but, and we are also speaking to each other, so we can collect the voice and face at the same time, and we don’t need to do any additional steps here, so we can apply voice and face biometrics and by the way, voice and face liveness at the same time, without any additional effort.

Alexey Khitrov (24:47):
And by doing that, we can, again, get even higher rates of all security, without inconveniencing the customers. And the same can be applied to the continuous content, because as we are engaging in the digital world, again, with, with different products, with different solutions, technologies, IT devices, banks, whatever, as we’re in the process of all this communication, there are a lot of data points that can be used continuously for this frictionless analysis. It can be done based on the visual. If there’s a camera involved, it can be done through voice. If there’s a voice involved, it can be done through (the) device. You know, for various types of behavioral checks, you know, the way you’re walking, the way you are holding the device, where you are geographically, and there are many other checks, it can be done kinda in the background. The key again, is to make sure that people are comfortable with it, and to make people comfortable is to on the one side properly explain the benefits and on the other side, give people control.

Carla Guzzetti (26:05):
So I think that it’s really incredible, and it feels like this is… I’m sold. I mean, I think it sounds much more secure. So I’m all in <laugh>. My question is, when do you really see this starting to happen on a regular basis? When does bio-metrics start to interface? So when I have to do my multifactor authentication to log in to my Microsoft apps on my computer, when are they gonna start, uh, when am I gonna have to start dancing in front of my computer for that? And, how quickly do you see this integrating into our day-to-day? When is it happening? Is it next year? Is it five years? And where do you see us in 10 or 20 years with bio-metrics? Because it seems like the obvious next step.

Alexey Khitrov (26:50):
Well, I think that, you know, if you do want to dance in front of your devices, I don’t think the technology should be stopping you. So I’m all for it. As far as the use of biometrics, I think it’s already started. I think we’re not in the beginning of this journey, we’re in the middle of it. And where this journey is going is to the place where we can have access to products and services and devices without any additional steps in the user experience and being able to receive data and services and conduct transactions in a natural way. So the type of user experience, they were going to the natural user experience, going back to the example of us communicating with friends and family we should be able to communicate in the same way with technology and, and do it in a safe and secure manner.

Alexey Khitrov (27:58):
And we’re already using the bio-metrics. We mentioned that we’re looking our phones now, you know, that’s where a lot of the apps, like banking apps they have the fingerprint, you know, when you call the call center, a lot of the call centers are, are utilizing voice biometrics. So, this is something that’s that we’re already using. It just is the question is that the current user experience that the previous generation of technology was dictating, is not the user experience that the next generation of this technology can deliver. And that’s the key change right now, is that not so much whether we’re using it or not, but how we’re using it and how and where this adaptation gets us, because the better the user experience is, the more experience there are gonna be covered, the, the more parts of our life are gonna be covered by this capability,

Tim Harrison (28:57):
Not to, uh, not to put you on the spot Alexey, but do you consider yourself a visionary?

Alexey Khitrov (29:02):
I consider myself a very lucky person that works with a lot of various smart guys in our R&D team, because, because what’s exciting about this, this industry is that it’s such a fast moving space. And every time we have, you know, meetings with our R&D team and in our company, and sorry for the shameless plug here, like we’re focused around the R&D key capability because that’s the way to deliver these new user experiences. That’s the way to, to deliver on this vision that we have is through getting the technology to do things that it couldn’t do before. So that’s the most exciting part of the journey, because when we have discussions and you push the guys, can we deliver this? And ‘then no we can’t’ and then two hours later, ‘well, maybe we can’, so –

Tim Harrison (30:01):
Spoken like a true visionary, that’s fantastic. Well, that’s great, Alexey. We really appreciate all the insight and the view into the future. I think that’s, uh, that’s fantastic. We really appreciate the conversation.

Alexey Khitrov (30:15):
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Harrison (30:29):
Well, Carla, after your, uh, shall we say mini rant earlier? Um, how do you feel now? How do you feel about, uh, security and biometrics?

Carla Guzzetti (30:39):
Uh, I think I feel conflicted. I’m gonna be honest. I feel conflicted. On the one hand. Yes. Thank you, Alexey, for taking all of my concerns away, um, and annoyances about multifactor authentication. <laugh> On the other hand, he made a very good point, which even though I’m irritated by it, it is a thing which is, I feel more secure because I’m doing it myself. There is this kind of, oh, well, if I’m the only one that can get into my phone, and I’m the only person that taps that even though really anybody can unlock my phone, but am telling myself these extra steps mean something to me somehow that makes it more secure, and –

Tim Harrison (31:18):
The complexity brings more protection.

Carla Guzzetti (31:21):
Exactly. Like somehow, just because it’s more complex, it’s a little bit – it’s safer, which is nonsense. I know logically that’s nonsense, but it does make me feel that way. Uh, so I think, and I think, you know, it’s going to, and I think that, I like to think that I’m an early adopter of technology. Uh, I would say it’s gonna be a little uncomfortable thinking that my bank is going to have my specific eye dance or recognize my retinas or, whatever it is that it’s gonna take to unlock my bank account. That is that’s gonna be a new turn. And now I feel old two times, I’m old, cuz I’m complaining about technology and I’m old because the new technology makes me uncomfortable. What is going on?

Tim Harrison (32:07):
That’s fair. Welcome to my world. Um, you know, hopefully you don’t have to give your eye away to the bank, but uh, yeah, I understand that I’m fascinated in how people are going to adopt this going forward because we do have sort of a, legacy of passwords and, you know, even Alexey himself mentioned that, you know, this is thousands of years old, the concept of the password, right. Going back to the Roman army. So it does take a little while to get people to change their minds, but you know, technology’s moving so quickly that it’s possible that in the next generation, they’re not even gonna think about this. It’s going to be just natural state for them. And I think that’s what Alexey’s, um, you know, focused on and going for, which is fascinating and, you know, terrifying to somebody of my generation and age.

Tim Harrison (32:56):
But, uh, but I think that we need to understand that sometimes technologies are made for those that are going to come after us and those that get the concept and sort of naturalize and inherit and inhabit that concept. So, I too am a little uncomfortable. I like the idea of being able to change my password at leisure and have it not related specifically to my bio-metric appearance, if you will. Um, but I’m sure that, you know, my son will, will open my front door with his face at some point and hopefully not crashing through it, but just the ability to go through, uh, and naturally feel comfortable with that. And to know that his bio-metrics are the key to the car, to the house, to, you know, to the bank, that kind of thing.

Carla Guzzetti (33:44):
Yeah. Well, I do think if we can adopt this at scale, it’s a fundamentally different life, right?

Tim Harrison (33:55):

Carla Guzzetti (33:55):
We… The amount of time that will be saved, the ease of access to things, it will be completely different from how we’re currently working and it will save us a significant amount of time. It will forever alter how we’re working with things. But to your point, Tim, I think to get to a point where this is really adopted at scale, it’s not even generation Z, it’s the generation after them and potentially the generation after them, before we get to a level of getting out of our brains, that we have to go through this, these steps to authenticate things. And, uh, but I think that this is where we’re going to go. And it’s obvious, this is where we’re gonna go. Because as if you think about this, it’s incredibly consumer centric, right. It’s thinking about –

Tim Harrison (34:41):
It’s the ultimate in consumer centric. It’s-

Carla Guzzetti (34:43):

Tim Harrison (34:43):
It’s the user itself, right?

Carla Guzzetti (34:46):
Yes, exactly. It’s the user ourselves and making sure that we’re, it’s easier for, for us to access all of the tools that we need in order to live within the infinite enterprise. So I mean, I think that this is a natural next step. And even if it might not be everywhere in five years, I’d say in at least 10 to 15, everybody will be- you’ll see this aggressively more adopted, uh, over and over. And I think it will just become commonplace by the… Not generation Z, but potentially the generation after that, because we’re gonna be moving faster and faster towards consumer centric technology because of the infinite enterprise. Right.

Tim Harrison (35:27):
Yeah. Agreed. And finally, that fish will be able to get through my door in a relatively fast amount of time. Um, so I, in many ways – I look forward to it in many ways. I have a bit of a hesitation, but I’m fine with eventually being the old man ranting at the VCR. So, uh, the time will come. Uh, I look forward to it, um, in, in so many ways, but I have to get out of my own way and allow tech technology to take its course.

Carla Guzzetti (35:58):
<laugh>. So you’ll be ranting at the VCR and I’ll be staring at it going, I feel uncomfortable about this, but we’re gonna do it anyway. It’s gonna be good.

Tim Harrison (36:06):
Just keep your eyes open.